From ken-grimes@h140.aone.net.au Fri, 01 Dec 2000 11:17:27 +1100
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 11:17:27 +1100
From: Ken Grimes ken-grimes@h140.aone.net.au
Subject: main pitfalls (was re: New subscriber)
>> >
>> > > What are the main pitfalls waiting to trip up an inexperienced
>> > > surveyor?
>> >
>> > Magnetic bits on your person
>> > Wet paper / ball point pens
>> > Sloppy recording / poor sketching
>>
>> Decade inversion reading instruments, and other artifacts
>> of not enough practice.
>>
>> The fine art of picking a survey point you can find so that
>> starting out where you left off is possible.
>>
>Finding someone that is willing to do the survay with you to the standards
>that are needed
>
* Forgetting to sketch cross-sections & long-profiles (and other detail).
* Reading wrong side (percent grade) of a SUUNTO clinometer
* Not taking a spare pencil
* Thinking you can remember details and sketch them after leaving the cave.
* Hanging compass, clino, pencil torch, etc from separate lanyards around your neck where they will weave an intricate macrame and eventually strangle you!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Grimes Phone +61 +3 5573 4503
Regolith Mapping, PO Box 362, Hamilton, Vic 3300, Australia
Cainozoic Geology, Geomorphology, Karst & Speleology.
---------------------------------------------------------------
From speleos@osite.com.br Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:23:24 -0200
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:23:24 -0200
From: Danilo Allegrini speleos@osite.com.br
Subject: main pitfalls (was re: New subscriber)
> >> >
> >> > > What are the main pitfalls waiting to trip up an inexperienced
> >> > > surveyor?
> >> >
> >> > Magnetic bits on your person
> >> > Wet paper / ball point pens
> >> > Sloppy recording / poor sketching
> >>
> >> Decade inversion reading instruments, and other artifacts
> >> of not enough practice.
> >>
> >> The fine art of picking a survey point you can find so that
> >> starting out where you left off is possible.
> >>
> >Finding someone that is willing to do the survay with you to the
standards
> >that are needed
> >
>
> * Forgetting to sketch cross-sections & long-profiles (and other detail).
> * Reading wrong side (percent grade) of a SUUNTO clinometer
> * Not taking a spare pencil
> * Thinking you can remember details and sketch them after leaving the
cave.
> * Hanging compass, clino, pencil torch, etc from separate lanyards around
your neck where they will weave an intricate macrame and eventually strangle
you!!!
Add
"taking too long to make the final drawing from your sketch and realize you
are not exactly sure about the details and notes you made"
"forgetting your survey tape and realize when you reach the survey site"
"not enough care with the instruments - mud or condensation in the sight
window"
"unwilling teammates - 'what? no way I will survey inside a hole *that
small*' - leading to interrogation marks in the final map"
"cold, numb fingers, instruments, BCRA5 and goddamn loops"
Danilo Allegrini
Sao Paulo - Brasil
From tom@idir.net Sun, 3 Dec 2000 23:40:10 -0600
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 23:40:10 -0600
From: T. Lounsbury tom@idir.net
Subject: Cave-Surveying digest, Vol 1 #13 - 1 msg
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Lazy surveyors is a real big problem, Bad notekeeping and unusable =
sketches.
Brother Tom
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Lazy surveyors is a real big problem, Bad =
notekeeping and=20
unusable sketches.
Brother Tom
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From ken-grimes@h140.aone.net.au Tue, 05 Dec 2000 13:43:47 +1100
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 13:43:47 +1100
From: Ken Grimes ken-grimes@h140.aone.net.au
Subject: Cave survey data and XML
In Cave Digest #5699 Don Lance wrote...
>I was wondering if there were any efforts underway to
>define any XML schemas for cave survey information.
Mike Lake (who is not on the Cave Digest list) has been working with Martin Laverty on CaveScript XML which is the generic name of a cave survey and map data format that could store all the information about a cave survey or an entire cave map. It is based on extensible markup language (XML).
For more info check his website at:
http://www.speleonics.com.au/cavescript/
or http://www.speleonics.com.au and click the CaveScript
button.
There you will find example CaveScript files, utility programs and documentation including the Document Type Definitions (DTDs) that describe the language.
To contact Mike direct mailto://mikel@BlueSky.com.au
Posted by Ken Grimes on behalf of Mike.
From david@caves.org.uk Thu, 7 Dec 2000 12:36:23 +0000
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 12:36:23 +0000
From: David Gibson david@caves.org.uk
Subject: admin notice
At the risk of irritating those who grumble about off-topic posts...
The recent discussion on this list has generated a large number of
undeliverable messages, and it is continuing to generate more fresh
ones. I have unsubscribed or suspended about 15 people so far, who seem
no longer to exist. In addition, some of you are trying to post from
non-member addresses, and some of you have forgotten the admin address -
all this makes extra work for me.
I know it is probably utterly pointless to remind you all :-) but....
1. If you change your e-mail address, PLEASE remember to un-subscribe
and then to re-subscribe at your new address.
2. Please remember that you can ONLY post to this list from the address
you are subscribed from. If you post from a non-member address I
have to deal with your message manually.
3. General information about the mailing list is at
If you ever want to unsubscribe or change your options (e.g., switch
to or from digest mode, change your password, etc.), please visit
this page.
4. You can also make such adjustments by e-mail by sending a message
to with the word 'help'
in the subject or body (dont include the quotes), and you will get
back a message with instructions.
** please do not use any other address for admin requests **
--
David Gibson (List Admin, whilst Olly's pretending he's still away :-)
From matthews@melbpc.org.au Thu, 14 Dec 2000 06:42:43 +1100
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 06:42:43 +1100
From: Peter MATTHEWS matthews@melbpc.org.au
Subject: Cave survey data and XML
After the recent postings in Cavers Digest about cave survey data and XML,
and a few further enquiries of my own, it looks like there is quite a
reasonable interest in getting something going. I have therefore formed a
separate group within the UIS Informatics Commission to provide the
international framework needed. Andreas Neumann, an experienced cave mapper
working at the ETH Dept of Cartography in Switzerland has very kindly
agreed to lead this new group. Not so easy a job - thanks Andreas!
The group's basic aim will be to achieve a widely agreed standard format
for the transfer and archiving of cave survey and mapping data, independent
of any particular cave survey software or computer platform.
It is proposed that the group's discussion, to start with at least, would
take place via the existing cave-surveying mailing list (Thanks Olly &
David!). And Mike Lake, who has an existing website already showing his
stage of development with cave survey and mapping data in XML, has offered
to make his site available to carry the ongoing latest work from the group
(Thanks Mike!).
In order to assist co-ordination with other aspects of cave survey and
mapping, the new group is positioned as a sub-group of the existing Cave
Survey and Mapping Working Group in the Informatics Commission, but would
predominantly run its own affairs of course. (Another sub-group is
currently preparing to debate cave/karst surface mapping symbols, having
already got international agreement on a set of basic cave mapping
symbols). Our new group would also need to co-ordinate with other groups in
the Commission soon to be working on the transfer and archiving format of
both general and specialised cave/karst data.
If you are interested in this survey and mapping data format topic please
seriously consider participating in the new group's work. The more people
participating who are also actively working with the practice and
management of cave surveying, cave mapping, XML, SVG, etc, then the better,
more practical and more useful the results will be of course.
There are however, as previous postings have hinted, a lot of issues yet to
be worked out. Andreas and I will both shortly be posting to the
cave-surveying list a few of our thoughts on what issues need addressing,
etc, and invite others to now do the same. We should then be able to draw
together a scope, objectives, modus operandi, etc, etc for the group.
>From here on I think it is more appropriate to move our further specialised
discussions to the cave-surveying list rather than risk boring a lot of
other Cavers Digest readers.
You can subscribe to the cave-surveying list via the web page:
http://lists.survex.com/mailman/listinfo/cave-surveying/
As Ken Grimes advised earlier, Mike Lake's existing XML web pages are at:
http://www.speleonics.com.au/cavescript/
See you on cave-surveying!
Peter Matthews
UIS Informatics Commission
matthews@melbpc.org.au
From olly@survex.com Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:13:52 +0000
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:13:52 +0000
From: Olly Betts olly@survex.com
Subject: Cave survey data and XML
>You can subscribe to the cave-surveying list via the web page:
>http://lists.survex.com/mailman/listinfo/cave-surveying/
If you don't have web access, you can join and leave the list just by
sending e-mail. For instructions, send a message with help in the subject to
cave-surveying-request@survex.com and it'll tell you what to do.
Cheers,
Olly
From matthews@melbpc.org.au Wed, 27 Dec 2000 20:37:45 +1100
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 20:37:45 +1100
From: Peter MATTHEWS matthews@melbpc.org.au
Subject: Cave survey data and XML
If you're wondering what's happened to the new group to discuss this,
please be patient - Christmas activities intervened! :-) Introductory
postings will be submitted soon.
Peter Matthews